tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post2219434216400488841..comments2024-03-10T20:46:19.274-04:00Comments on In the Middle: On calling out misogynyCord J. Whitakerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06224143153295429986noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-4954939008719794022017-02-26T11:24:59.118-05:002017-02-26T11:24:59.118-05:00Sorry to be commenting so late to this conversatio...Sorry to be commenting so late to this conversation.<br /><br />This issue leaves me torn. Frantzen's "red pill" alt-rightesque essays are definitely hateful. But what is the correct response to someone with such views? Imagine if it were not a retired scholar writing such stuff, but a young one. Does one exclude them from speaking (non-platform)? Can this information be used against them on hiring committees? Unless someone is actively charged with criminal behaviour, such as contravening hate-speech laws in the UK, such strategies would have their own dangers and unintended consequences. As much as Frantzen's writings are hateful, I doubt that they would breech such laws. Therefore there does not seem much other option for an open society than to allow such persons airspace within the academy. The alternative would opens the door to allow discrimination by political affiliation or viewpoint, and that is worse road to go down. <br /><br />But this least-worst option brings with it a real challenge, and possibly an opportunity. Frantzen's writing is divisive because of how it characterises feminism as seeking matriachal control over public life, rather than a movement seeking to address gendered discriminations that negatively impacts everyone (men, women, and others). If one read Dale Beran's recent essay on 4chan and its users, an essay which maps how misogyny in the US is tied to the unemployment and the disenchanted of young men, then one realises that such hateful views will currently find a lot of airtime, even among highly educated college students. Therefore, to confront and debate people like Frantzen on feminist terms would not be to assert, as they would wish, that the do not understand feminism; it would be to assert that the answers they give to men who feel they cannot fulfil American ideals of masculinity are misguided. In other words, in order for young men not to fall for the false aspirations of Frantzen, or more recently Milo Yiannopoulos, feminists needs to empathise with and speak to the huge population of young men in America who feel they have a personal crises with their masculinity, and who ended up voting Trump. And we need to find ways to speak to them in a language they would understand. <br /> <br />Rant over. Apologies if it was too long. Dale Beran's essay is here: https://medium.com/@DaleBeran/4chan-the-skeleton-key-to-the-rise-of-trump-624e7cb798cb#.cafv527ux<br /><br />Andrew Murray<br />Portsmouth, Uk. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-27787069448423002972017-01-10T13:01:52.984-05:002017-01-10T13:01:52.984-05:00You know what? On further reflection, I regret lea...You know what? On further reflection, I regret leaving that post above. I now realize that my calling feminists 'feminazis' and citing the work of a critical theorist whose last well known work dates from 27 years ago is as clear a sign as any that I have nothing to offer these conversations. I will now dedicate my life to getting up to speed on three decades of feminist criticism instead of making an ass of myself by leaving comments like the above.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-49988673643547090692016-10-29T08:46:27.592-04:002016-10-29T08:46:27.592-04:00Hi men - apparently some of you are stopping by to...Hi men - apparently some of you are stopping by to try to leave a comment that aims to argue us out of feminism. Don't bother. medievalkarlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440542200843836794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-84947077261680737922016-02-02T09:07:55.426-05:002016-02-02T09:07:55.426-05:00Hi John, I will not back down on condemning Allen ...Hi John, I will not back down on condemning Allen Frantzen's anti-feminism. Perhaps his book will offer a more nuanced take on the dangers of feminism than his website does; I don't really care. The website is quite detailed and offers all the evidence I needed to come to the conclusions I offered in this post.<br /><br />I cannot speak for others. All I can say is that I find what he has written to be hate filled. I fully stand by what I posted here. Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-85959027961423323782016-02-02T08:26:10.178-05:002016-02-02T08:26:10.178-05:00Was my comment obliterated coz I could not follow ...Was my comment obliterated coz I could not follow your ID methodology...? <br /><br />OK: Back off Alan Frantzen until we've all read his article, in full. Excerpting it and calling it "hate-filled" is not a scholarly, objective approach to what he has said or is alleged to have said. After I've read the thing, the whole thing, and nothing but the thing, I'll respond. Responding now is premature. OK? -- John McLaughlin (john.mclaughlin4@verizon.net: Website: www;thedigitalfolklife.org; Blog: wordpress.com.johnmclaughlin.4 (I think that's correct -- check me, if you want to).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05260858936096607464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-68269740506434087152016-02-02T08:21:00.365-05:002016-02-02T08:21:00.365-05:00I've always found Alan Frantzen to be interest...I've always found Alan Frantzen to be interesting, and I think "hate-filled" is a bit over the top for describing a passionate disagreement in a central argument in the field. Sorry, Jeffrey: lower your own tone, and we can discuss this fairly rationally (OK, not completely rationally -- we're human beings, and that means we do have our own acquired biases and objections to what other people love -- or claim to love, because it makes them look good...( see how I can use innuendo too?) <br /><br />So: Back off and let me read the thing, the whole thing, and nothing but the thing. I'll get back to your public statement later (I was about to call it your "public rabble-rousing, but there I'd go, adding fuel to the fire) -- John (john.mclaughlin4@verizon.net -- I couldn't figure out the elaborate means-to-respond below).john.mclaughlni4@verizon.nethttp://www.thefigitalfolklife.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-6716273672319265672016-01-21T19:29:10.499-05:002016-01-21T19:29:10.499-05:00The "red pill" vocab really is unbecomin...The "red pill" vocab really is unbecoming!A.W. Strousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04305791809223967764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-79709366238468004952016-01-21T19:11:05.597-05:002016-01-21T19:11:05.597-05:00*command respect*command respectmedievalkarlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440542200843836794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-35416325742581044552016-01-21T19:10:36.048-05:002016-01-21T19:10:36.048-05:00"produce" is a pretty distinct verb from..."produce" is a pretty distinct verb from "enable" - but the larger point is that Frantzen's MRA page is of a piece both with the larger MRA movement (including its "red pill" "blue pill" vocab) and with a much longer history of misogyny. No local argumentative mistake is going to do much to speed that misogyny on its way; it's been doing its garbage thing for ages.<br /><br />The appalling thing about Frantzen's page is how it squanders his scholarly reputation. His other reputation has been, of course, bad, but at least he was upheld as someone who had the scholarly chops to command respond. But any MRA knucklehead could have written his MRA blog. That's just pathetic.medievalkarlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440542200843836794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-6439577868154727482016-01-21T18:10:33.365-05:002016-01-21T18:10:33.365-05:00The anonymous poster claimed that Frantzen "a...The anonymous poster claimed that Frantzen "associated himself" with someone who "wrote a rape manual" and who rapidly hates Jews. These statements are flatly untrue, and in ignoring the facts they give credence to Frantzen's view that feminism has become dogmatic. <br /><br />Karl: Feminism aside, mistaken arguments usually enable the opposing side, no?A.W. Strousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04305791809223967764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-78964441168578882952016-01-21T15:15:48.860-05:002016-01-21T15:15:48.860-05:00Wow: to say a "kind of excess" among tho...Wow: to say a "kind of excess" among those who speak against misogyny is responsible for ("has produced") what you call "this new strain of virulent anti-feminism" (is it really that new??) is the most bizarre kind of victim blaming, A. W. Strouse.Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-18674550289133599602016-01-21T15:10:48.797-05:002016-01-21T15:10:48.797-05:00To put it mildly, I think it's strange to blam...To put it mildly, I think it's strange to blame feminist arguments, even mistaken feminist arguments, for the misogyny of Frantzen or others.medievalkarlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12440542200843836794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-74856616962459507662016-01-21T11:47:14.083-05:002016-01-21T11:47:14.083-05:00Frantzen links to Roosh in order to criticize Roos...Frantzen links to Roosh in order to criticize Roosh. Frantzen says explicitly of Roosh, "None of this looks encouraging to me." <br /><br />The conflation of Frantzen with Roosh is fallacious and excessive. It serves as an example of the kind of excess that has produced this new strain of virulent anti-feminism. A.W. Strousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04305791809223967764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-48068885781639665482016-01-20T17:28:40.157-05:002016-01-20T17:28:40.157-05:00Thank you for this. I am in another (academic) fi...Thank you for this. I am in another (academic) field and so happened upon this in a roundabout way. I wonder whether age (I do not know his age) and increasing disinhibition could be contributing to this volatility and unhingedness?<br /><br />No one needs me to point out that the content of his speech would constitute sexual harassment/discrimination on campus: "grab your balls"?!<br /><br />In re: those battle scars, I was slow to notice mine, but this does not really surprise me either. The behavior I see is usually somewhat more covert — not all that covert, though — but the aggression, disparagement, and negative projection are all too familiar. The juvenility, vindictiveness, and above all the assumption that one can populate the table according to one's personal whim is palpable. <br /><br />Now, what to do about the "respected faculty" who act this way and just hide it better? And about the institutions that support this and whitewash it and force women to choose between being a handmaiden of the patriarchy or being forced out?Not Making Uphttp://iamnotmakingup.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-55209131722415190342016-01-18T20:18:05.709-05:002016-01-18T20:18:05.709-05:00Hi, long time fan and reader of this blog. I am a ...Hi, long time fan and reader of this blog. I am a grad student from UK, finishing up dissertation in medieval literature. It is really surreal to have a well-thumbed copy of 'Desire for Origins' on my bookshelf then find out that the author Franzen has load of RP stuff on his website. Apart from anything else, does he know that he links to a self-professed rapist, Roosh V? Roosh wrote what amounts to a 'how to rape manual' for men visiting Europe. And also Franzen links to Roosh's 'game' (gag) website, Return of the Kings. I won't link to directly as it is crazy white supremacist BS on how women are inherently evil, and also how brown people and TEH JEWS will kill us all. Oh and how rape can be solved by making it legal. Checkmate, feminists! Seriously though, how can any sane, educated, tenured, professor person even associate themselves with this? <br /><br />Roosh<br /><br /> https://www.change.org/p/amazon-com-amazon-stop-selling-rooshv-daryush-valizadeh-rape-books<br /><br /><br />Weirdly, rape apologia and hatred of Jews/non whites seems to go hand in hand:<br /><br />http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/05/04/pickup-artist-roosh-v-edges-ever-closer-to-neo-nazism-with-an-attack-on-cosmopolitan-degenerate-jews/<br /><br />Franzen links to this crap on his website in his 'total bro section':<br /><br /><br />http://www.allenjfrantzen.com/Men/sites.html<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />I can't get over this. I've grown up in an internet / media saturated culture and RP stuff is increasingly pervasive but most people recognise it as insane and horrible and actually kind of laughable in how illogical it is. Very surreal to see such an eminent and established medieval prof go off the deep end with this stuff. I feel sad about it. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />BRB kicking Desire for Origins down the stairsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-81879745431937243252016-01-18T18:07:35.470-05:002016-01-18T18:07:35.470-05:00Thank your for this. I do not want to be part of a...Thank your for this. I do not want to be part of a profession that does not call this writing behaviour out!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07525381069277590875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-21994680401045802132016-01-18T18:06:17.526-05:002016-01-18T18:06:17.526-05:00Thank you for this! I do not want to be part of a ...Thank you for this! I do not want to be part of a profession that sees a problem with calling this out.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07525381069277590875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-28415554590926627532016-01-18T14:58:11.559-05:002016-01-18T14:58:11.559-05:00Thank you, Jeffrey. Thinking about this in relatio...Thank you, Jeffrey. Thinking about this in relation to a twitter convo the other day with David Perry inre. "The Man in the High Castle" by Philip K. Dick. Which is about alternate realities, and how they exist AS realities, haunting our own. So just because "we" win a war doesn't mean "they" go away. That reality -- that poison, that fascism, that horror -- continues to run alongside ours, seeping in, distorting, threatening to take over. The firestorm that swept over the world of American poetry last summer and fall, in which a number of prominent poets were called out on social media for misogyny, sexual harassment, and racism, is now beginning to flicker in the realm of medieval studies. And it should give everyone pause. It's truly depressing and disheartening to think about, especially given that many outside that realm think of medieval studies as a retrograde field. All the more important to be vocal and decisive in condemning and calling out Frantzen, and urging the field, all of us, to be better... D Hadbawnikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15888169593780246502noreply@blogger.com