tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post7736700261168438332..comments2024-03-10T20:46:19.274-04:00Comments on In the Middle: Infinite Realms and Alternate WorldsCord J. Whitakerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06224143153295429986noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-10653502952896438262007-05-08T16:03:00.000-04:002007-05-08T16:03:00.000-04:00I agree that what's important isn't what 'really h...<I>I agree that what's important isn't what 'really happened' but the representation of the period by contemporary writers.</I><BR/><BR/>More than that, if there isn't "actually" anarchy (whatever that means in this context), and if there's nevertheless a historiographical expression of trauma, it's far, far more interesting than a simple cause and effect relation between events and records of events.Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-57375129155235054602007-05-08T16:02:00.000-04:002007-05-08T16:02:00.000-04:00On trauma, I have to come to like this more than t...On trauma, I have to come to like this more than the work produced by the crowd (Caruth, LaCapra, Felman, Friedlander, et al.)that followed in the wake of 1980--when the American Psychiatric Association officially recognized Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder: <BR/><BR/><I>Trauma and Symbolism</I>. (Monograph V of the Kris Study Group of the New York Psychoanalytic Institute.): Edited by Herbert F. Waldhorn, M.D. and Bernard D. Fine, M.D. New York: International Universities Press, Inc., 1974. <BR/><BR/>The book makes reference to Susanne Langer (and I heartily recommend looking up her work), yet fails to make the crucial distinction that she has so well articulated between signs and symbols, between that which represents and that which is a vehicle for the conception of an object. So, becuase there is a certain confounding of sign and symbol, the book separates itself a bit intellectually from any of the current literature both within and outside of psychoanalysis on the symbolic process, the role of symbols in linguistics, and the development of the symbolizing capacity. That said, I would have a look-see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-29856202887450958442007-05-08T13:36:00.000-04:002007-05-08T13:36:00.000-04:00As an historian I do not fully agree with Crouch e...As an historian I do not fully agree with Crouch either - Paul Dalton - in his study of Yorkshire - takes a rather different and less respectful view of the activities of the northern nobility, great and small. The difficulty is the lack of evidence - but on the whole I prefer Dalton's arguments.<BR/><BR/>And can I join the others in being enthusiastic about your line CC?<BR/>n50Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-55114664351782151822007-05-08T13:04:00.000-04:002007-05-08T13:04:00.000-04:00I've got one foot out the door for Kalamazoo, and ...I've got one foot out the door for Kalamazoo, and I should be grading Chaucer exams, but I want to thank C. Clark for the smart comments -- and say that I am very much looking forward to the paper.<BR/><BR/>On Crouch and the Anarchy as myth, see also his biography of King Stephen. BUT I'm not sure Crouch's debunking of what has become modern doxa about the anarchy ought to be taken too far in specific cases: there clearly were moments of trauma during Stephen's reign, and works like the Gesta Stephani and PeteChron surely record some of it (though not of course dispassionately). In fact I'd also add the Life of St William of Norwich to that list, esp. because some it uncannily echoes the Pete Chron -- e.g., a miracle story that takes us inside the dungeon of a castle, the same horrid space given the Poe treatment in the PeteChron.Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-61290981335485339682007-05-08T13:01:00.000-04:002007-05-08T13:01:00.000-04:00Gosh - this comment-posting business gets a lot ea...Gosh - this comment-posting business gets a lot easier once you've dipped the first toe in!<BR/><BR/>Thanks to Karl Steel and n50 for the comments. I'm familiar with Crouch's work and realise it's not very fashionable (amongst historians, at least) to talk about the 'Anarchy', but I agree that what's important isn't what 'really happened' but the representation of the period by contemporary writers. Writers like William of Newburgh unquestionably regard the Anarchy as Anarchic, and it becomes a really interesing focus for writing violence, disorder and trauma. <BR/><BR/>There's no 'after Kzoo' for me, as I'm not going this year (long way from Swansea, Wales!), but at least this means I'm free to get straight on with pondering all these interesting theories and readings.<BR/><BR/>I'll let you know what happens with the paper.C Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11854094298684869678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-39101953198009919732007-05-08T12:41:00.000-04:002007-05-08T12:41:00.000-04:00The first 7 pages of Crouch's Reign of King Steph...The first 7 pages of Crouch's <I> Reign of King Stephen</I> also do the job - laying the 'invention' plainly at the door of Stubbs' nineteenth-century statism.N50https://www.blogger.com/profile/02927387227571782287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-28043534562600467902007-05-08T12:25:00.000-04:002007-05-08T12:25:00.000-04:00That's page 198 in the Crouch where, no doubt, his...That's page 198 in the Crouch where, no doubt, his stupendously rich footnotes will lead you somewhere. Funny enough, my search for 'Anarchy' (of the 12th-century variety) in my database also gives me page 44 in JJC's 'Flow of Blood' <I>Speculum</I> article.Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-79261061695441589362007-05-08T10:34:00.000-04:002007-05-08T10:34:00.000-04:00Thanks for posting, and I wish you (a representati...Thanks for posting, and I wish you (a representative you, I'm afraid) didn't think it took bravery to post here. What it takes is a keen ability to procrastinate. As I'm doing now.<BR/><BR/><I>I've been reading these texts as responses to the traumatic events of the 12th-century Anarchy</I><BR/><BR/>Your project sounds interesting (and I think our Uebel will have something to say about trauma), but I wonder about the Anarchy as such. <I>After</I> Kzoo, you may wish to look at David Crouch's recent book, <I>The Birth of Nobility.</I> Now, whether or not there was an Anarchy in a material sense has little to do with its <I>discursive</I> existence, both in contemporary and postmedieval historiography. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps you'd like to post your paper here? I mean, after the 16th (or its public delivery, whichever comes later).Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-64699980049279320322007-05-08T10:04:00.000-04:002007-05-08T10:04:00.000-04:00I'm currently working on these same stories in Wil...I'm currently working on these same stories in William of Newburgh (alongside other texts of the 'Anarchy' in the Peterborough Chronicle and John of Worcester's Chronicle), and Jeffrey was kind enough to send me his lecture on the Green Children. I've also really enjoyed reading the 'Infinte Realms' piece here, which very persuasively links the Green Children story into the other supernatural narratives in the following chapter.<BR/><BR/>I've been reading these texts as responses to the traumatic events of the 12th-century Anarchy, and have found modern 'trauma theory' to be a particularly productive interpretative tool. There's a clear acknowledgement in texts like PeteChron that the Anarchy has involved events and experiences which are beyond language / narrative, and I'm interested in how that unreachable experience of trauma is represented (in displaced or metaphorical terms) in contemporary literature.<BR/><BR/>The supernatural stories in William of Newburgh display classic features of 'trauma writing' - narratives of reality disturbed or disrupted by experience beyond the grasp of reason; patterns of replay and repetition (here the recurrent motifs of failed normalisation / suppression / containment); and the development of narrative form itself as the central focus (see Kali Tal's comments on how traumatic events 'are written and rewritten until they become codified and narrative form gradually replaces content as the focus of attention').<BR/><BR/>As with many of William's supernatural stories - revenants, vampires etc - I think the particular *place* of these narratives in his History are relevant. So I think there is a direct resonance between the stories in Chapters 27 and 28 and the surrounding account of the Anarchy.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, although I don't read these stories from exactly the same perspective as Jeffrey, I find his ideas very compelling and convincing and we're both clearly in agreement in terms of motifs of suppression / repression etc here.<BR/><BR/>I'm just finishing up my own paper before its delivery deadline on May 16th - and will then send it on to Jeffrey has promised!<BR/><BR/>PS This is the first time I've ever got excited (or brave) enough to post a comment on a blog. I hope the technical side works - and thanks again for sharing such interesting ideas.C Clarkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11854094298684869678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-69785469021345124052007-05-08T09:54:00.000-04:002007-05-08T09:54:00.000-04:00This goes in a different direction from the genera...This goes in a different direction from the general current of this discussion, but I'd be interested in hearing what you (or any other participants here) make of the sad tone of the WBT's opening. What does the excursus on the encroachment of modern (14c) urban life and its displacement of "fayreye" suggest about whatever--or whoever--inhabited "this land...many hundred yeeres ago"? (I don't have my Riverside to hand, so excuse my spelling.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-23430875527570508932007-05-08T07:08:00.000-04:002007-05-08T07:08:00.000-04:00MU: looking forward then to the kive version, and ...MU: looking forward then to the kive version, and hoping for an Exemplarium expansion.<BR/><BR/>Karl: thanks for the etymological excursus, which is in fact very suggestive. I think I know Kruger's book so well that it is impossible for me NOT to be haunted by his use of spectrality, esp. given the subject matter (as you point out: 2 disappeared but not absent peoples).<BR/><BR/>GC: Absolutely right! I love the detail of the Briton book that Constance's attacker must swear upon, an acknowledgment that English Christianity is belated ... in the longer version of the essay (I will begin my paper by saying "I have a 100 page version of this paper at home in which all questions are answered and all lacunae filled") I treat all Chaucer's uses of the words Briton and fairy (so that brings in the Squire's Tale as well).Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-42416472796538201872007-05-07T23:57:00.000-04:002007-05-07T23:57:00.000-04:00Still I would interrogate what you call "natural":...<I>Still I would interrogate what you call "natural": I don't doubt it seems thus from the inside, but my argument posits an outside (not merely an outside perspective, but a whole universe</I><BR/><BR/>Alright then. Looking forward to it.Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-56159822670487428532007-05-07T21:31:00.000-04:002007-05-07T21:31:00.000-04:00As to blogging it: I don't think so, for the reas...As to blogging it: I don't think so, for the reason that the papers may be become a special section of <I>Exemplaria</I>. Emphasis is placed on "may"--this is, as I understand from the good Dr. Joy, only at the preliminary-pre-proposal stage.<BR/><BR/>But also: Haven't I already blogged it, for chrissakes. Hehehe.<BR/><BR/>Karl: I appreciate your description of being struck by an affinity between JJC's and Kruger's arguments at an essentially formal (analogic) level. Sure. I wouldn't charge you with misrecognizing, or even making a "boring or bad connection."<BR/><BR/>Still I would interrogate what you call "natural": I don't doubt it seems thus from the inside, but my argument posits an outside (not merely an outside perspective, but a whole universe). This will, I hope become somewhat clear on Friday. I only have 3 single-spaced pages to work with, but I have pages of notes that I hope will become relevant sometime.<BR/><BR/>N.B.: My metaphor (doh!) of the inside/outside ain't the old us versus them I trotted out in blunt fashion a year ago. As I shall make clear, this is not about being a part of a discipline or field that can claim some direct effect on the social over against being part of a field that traditionally cannot make such a claim. No, no, it's deeper than that....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-18174193775702493122007-05-07T20:16:00.000-04:002007-05-07T20:16:00.000-04:00It should be difficult to defend the use of a meta...<I>It should be difficult to defend the use of a metaphor that is merely accumulative in nature</I><BR/><BR/>Ah. Well, I won't necessarily defend my spectral suggestion on intellectual grounds, but I can defend it against charges of mere accumulation (a funny word choice given JJC's paper: from <A HREF="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/accumulation" REL="nofollow">here</A> "1490, from L. accumulationem (nom. accumulatio), from accumulare "to heap up in a mass," from ad- "in addition" + cumulare "heap up," from cumulus "heap" (see cumulus)."). JJC's paper touched on a memory, and I made a connection--you might even say a kind of heimlich, affective connection--between his argument and Kruger's discussion of the spectral. Given that the audience for Kruger's work and JJC's work is often coterminous, I thought others experience might want/be able to enjoy the affective pleasures of recognition. <BR/><BR/><I>Now,</I> there's an implication in your words, MU, of misrecognition and muddling. I'm happy to take that charge on the chin, but I won't deny that I experienced some kind of homely emotion in reading about the "belatedness of a people to the land they possess, figuring the territory's earlier inhabitants as an inhuman race whose traces are dwindling, whose presence lingers as if at a dimming twilight." I think it's only natural to see in that a connection to the relationship between medieval Christianity and Judaism (or even medieval Christians and Jews). Maybe it's a bad or boring connection, but it's there.<BR/><BR/>And, yes, Michael U: I second the request for the paper here.Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-76134951993935370742007-05-07T20:02:00.000-04:002007-05-07T20:02:00.000-04:00Ywis, what of the tale of the Man of Lawe?Le Vostr...Ywis, what of the tale of the Man of Lawe?<BR/><BR/>Le Vostre<BR/>GCEYYÜP HANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08545687042079466887noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-26723419838136506152007-05-07T19:38:00.001-04:002007-05-07T19:38:00.001-04:00Michael U: do you want to guest blog your paper he...Michael U: do you want to guest blog your paper here at ITM, before or after K'zoo?Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-88927548189526258862007-05-07T17:38:00.000-04:002007-05-07T17:38:00.000-04:00Karl: Yes.Hehe. One metaphor is not as good as an...Karl: Yes.<BR/><BR/>Hehe. <BR/><BR/>One metaphor is not as good as another. It would be wrong to play a game where we decide what is a metaphor and what is not, since all language is metaphoric in a basic sense. I would suggest that some metaphors are portable, some are not. Some are invoked to show off, some are not. Some are merely there to satisfy some imaginary reader, some are not. Some are original, some are not. Some are clumsy, some are not. <BR/><BR/>But, perhaps most pointedly here, some add something (e.g., clarification) to a reading, to a critical observation, and some do not. <BR/><BR/>It should be difficult to defend the use of a metaphor that is merely accumulative in nature. Your response illustrates this difficulty with respect to "the spectral."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-70243232176105041532007-05-07T16:12:00.000-04:002007-05-07T16:12:00.000-04:00is mu the same as eb? And, please, can we read a c...is mu the same as eb? <BR/><BR/>And, please, can we read a copy of MU's paper after K'zoo?N50https://www.blogger.com/profile/02927387227571782287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-12992084989315328662007-05-07T15:38:00.000-04:002007-05-07T15:38:00.000-04:00the mound as the "underground" or unconscious of t...<I>the mound as the "underground" or unconscious of the anglocentric progress narrative</I><BR/><BR/>Do you mean "more metaphorizing" in addition to this topographic unconscious (er, trogloformic unconscious? the geological uncanny?)? What distinguishes this metaphor from spectral metaphors? (at any rate, I wasn't suggesting that JJC jam in that metaphor; it's more that from what I remember the discussion in Kruger's book simply goes well with what JJC is doing here: in other words, I may be simultaneously defending my suggestion and denying that I made it. Very Alberto Gonzales of me).Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-20641896345956310442007-05-07T12:33:00.000-04:002007-05-07T12:33:00.000-04:00the mound as the "underground" or unconscious of t...<I>the mound as the "underground" or unconscious of the anglocentric progress narrative, the stubborn intrusion of an Other past that surfaces what cannot accede to the burgeoning of the nation, or which at least tells a rather different story (about the past, about a possible future).</I><BR/><BR/>I just want to point out something to think about in advance of my zoo paper. <BR/><BR/>I like the quoted JJC more than just a little. It demonstrates to me that one can make an interesting theoretically-oriented observation without invoking an allegory like spectrality. (And shame on Karl for trying to inject it.)<BR/><BR/>The question to think about: what do you gain by more metaphorizing? (Or, in this case, more metaphorizing that others have already done?)<BR/><BR/>I have an answer or two to that. I hope it generates some debate on Friday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-67376850695668317562007-05-07T08:31:00.000-04:002007-05-07T08:31:00.000-04:00Karl: Thanks for catching those infelicities. I ca...Karl: Thanks for catching those infelicities. I caught quite a few more as I re-read the piece over the weekend; I posted it in a drafty state, more so than I thought. The Wogan-Browne sounds on point for the larger project.<BR/><BR/>JKW: I love this line:<BR/><EM>the literature of medieval England has no desire to accommodate potentially rival mythologies, and all the accommodating motions of the Welsh were not only rebuffed but flatly ignored.</EM><BR/>That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?<BR/><BR/>N50: wake that SO up! This is important! But I too am interested in the material object around which (or inside which) the story is told. I started to think about mounds a little in my last book, but it was just the first steps on the path of a longer project. The mounds derive from so many sources (prehistoric, British, Roman, A-S) ... they seem the perpetual reminders of every people's belatedness.<BR/><BR/>Eileen, you write: <EM>does this raise any questions about how the fantasical properties invested in these mound communities points to a cultural investment in the power of a, say, nationalist counter-narrative? Are they like symptoms, let's say, of a not entirely successful repression of otherness?</EM> <BR/><BR/>And I say: yes! That's exactly what I was trying to get at, the mound as the "underground" or unconscious of the anglocentric progress narrative, the stubborn intrusion of an Other past that surfaces what cannot accede to the burgeoning of the nation, or which at least tells a rather different story (about the past, about a possible future).Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-18539898613292266602007-05-05T20:26:00.000-04:002007-05-05T20:26:00.000-04:00As Karl writes, yes, thanks for sharing this. It g...As Karl writes, yes, thanks for sharing this. It got me thinking, too: okay, as you indicate, these fairy or secret portal worlds may represent "worlds that exist in strange contiguity to everyday life," and ultimately may serve to figure particular aspects of an archipelagan history that is covered over by an "English" nationalist epistemology, BUT, since they appear--these mound dwellings and secret underground social spaces--in various narratives, and are also invested with certain magical properties, does this raise any questions about how the fantasical properties invested in these mound communities points to a cultural investment in the power of a, say, nationalist counter-narrative? Are they like symptoms, let's say, of a not entirely successful repression of otherness?Eileen Joyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13756965845120441308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-62421785032271094902007-05-05T16:21:00.000-04:002007-05-05T16:21:00.000-04:00I would be interested in the moundness of the moun...I would be interested in the moundness of the mounds - but a different paper perhaps. There is still a popular story that the Yorkshire Wolds (which are littered with very prominent burial mounds even today) were so regarded as the home of the dead that they were avoided by the settlements of the living until recent (ie Roman) times. So what fascinates me is the integration of real landscapes into these tales. <BR/><BR/>My SO (Welsh and nearly with a phd in med. lit) tells me that the Cymreig also had tales of 'folk' living in the earth - and so I wonder about the specifically Welsh/British ness of Newburgh's anxieties. Couldn't get many more specifics out of him - JKW might have some ideas (for SO is now asleep!).<BR/><BR/>I am fascinated by the Orfeo - would like to hear more about that. <BR/><BR/>Chaucer? But is he sui generis? Those italianate leanings of his - do they permanently suppress all interest in Britishness among all English writers - I wouldn't have thought so - but them I am no literary scholar - more of a mound scholar...<BR/><BR/>sorry I will not be there to hear the final paper - I shall be looking out for the virtual K'zoo.N50https://www.blogger.com/profile/02927387227571782287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-32248280488551524292007-05-05T14:31:00.000-04:002007-05-05T14:31:00.000-04:00I like this very much, Jeffrey. I too am struck b...I like this very much, Jeffrey. I too am struck by the absence of the nearby Celtic world in Chaucer's works, especially given the vigor with which contemporary Welsh literature explores the possibilites of accommodating Welsh/British mythology to medieval political realities. Mediveal Welsh literature is very aware of and concerned with its larger neighbor--and, given the demographics, this is understandable. <BR/><BR/>In <I>Cyffranc Lludd a Llefelys</I> the center of Britain is determined to be Oxford, <I>Rytychen</I>, which is a literal translation of the English (ford of the oxen, literally). In <I>Branwen</I> the over-king of Britain, Benigeidfran, is specifically described as being invested with the crown of London, and he demands that his head be interred in the White Hill of London when he dies. (Even more specifically, he wants his face pointed towards France.) And, as I <A HREF="http://jjcohen.blogspot.com/2006/06/manawydan.html" REL="nofollow">posted</A> last summer when I was your guest blogger, the third branch of the <I>Mabinogi</I> displays a nuanced understanding of the English market economy.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't say that these <I>Mabinogion</I> references demonstrate an all-consuming Welsh anxiety about England or fixation with all things English--far from it. Instead I'd argue that much medieval Welsh literature is concerned with orienting itself in such a way as to recognize the political contours of mediveal Britain. But, as you demonstrate, the literature of medieval England has no desire to accommodate potentially rival mythologies, and all the accommodating motions of the Welsh were not only rebuffed but flatly ignored.JKWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14965566773252227387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-49735871346542390252007-05-05T08:21:00.000-04:002007-05-05T08:21:00.000-04:00Thanks for posting this. I'm really enjoying this ...Thanks for posting this. I'm really enjoying this project (and I like "epistemic edge" quite a bit). I'm sure I'll have more to say later, maybe even something useful, but, for now, all I have are a few minor points.<BR/><BR/>First, I wondered where the word 'spectral' was in here. I kept thinking of the opening chapter of <I>The Spectral Jew,</I> which you may want to reference directly or indirectly.<BR/><BR/>Second (and here's the <I>minor</I>) point: <BR/><I>Not the most polite guest, the man pours the drink from its cup and flees on horseback to his village. The revelers pursue him, eager to regain the stolen goblet, but his horse proves too swift for their feet.</I><BR/><BR/>Not clear to me from the first sentence that he's stolen the cup. It sounds like he just made a mess and ran. The 'feet' thing in second sentence is odd.<BR/><BR/>See? <I>Minor.</I> Even petty.<BR/><BR/>(by the way, for the larger version of this project, you might want to discuss a manuscript I mentioned earlier, one I learned about from Wogan-Browne's recent talk: Bodley, Laud Misc 636, c. 1100-1150, which contains the AS Chronicle (to 1154) but has, in its margins in its last pages, a late 13th-century version of the <I>Livere des reis.</I> Following JWB's brief analysis, you see here an effort to put the histories side by side, not to harmonize them, but to puzzle them out, to demonstrate at once materially and textually that the British and AS (and Anglo-Norman) histories crowd into the same time without being contemporary.)Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.com