tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post2733326984114195377..comments2024-03-10T20:46:19.274-04:00Comments on In the Middle: Return of the Latin Mass: Comments?Cord J. Whitakerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06224143153295429986noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-71237793440739206212007-07-18T09:43:00.000-04:002007-07-18T09:43:00.000-04:00Not as well as you did, Karl! But yes, that was my...Not as well as you did, Karl! But yes, that was my intent (typo and all).Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-50113247275585845542007-07-18T09:38:00.000-04:002007-07-18T09:38:00.000-04:00Now, as a symptom of a certain stance towards time...<I>Now, as a symptom of a certain stance towards time</I><BR/><BR/>Which is, duh, what Jeffrey said, right?Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-37022133125401608702007-07-18T08:54:00.000-04:002007-07-18T08:54:00.000-04:00I can vouch for its sincerity at least. The author...I can vouch for its sincerity at least. The author, Scott Korb: I know him. He is every bit the sincere and gentle and longing Catholic that he portrays himself in this piece.<BR/><BR/>That said, I'm hesitant about this piece for many, many reasons, not least of all statements like this,"Benedict, like the Tridentine priest, has turned his back once again on the modern Church, to say nothing of the modern world." I hardly need say it, but we (whether we are for our against Benedict) should know enough not to declare whatever displeases us, whatever interrupts our preferred narrative, as 'not of today,' as 'out of time,' or as a 'return.'<BR/><BR/>I'm also dubious about the simultaneous call in the piece to move forward (to learn from Jews and Muslims, to slough off various prejudices) and to reembrace abandoned traditions/possibilities (of womanpriests). Generously, we could say this is a Benjaminian move, of starting again with the ruins of failed revolutions: but that's being generous, I think.<BR/><BR/>Finally, I <I>do</I> think it should be impossible to talk about the Latin mass in 2007 without looking at French Catholic politics, which means remembering to whom Benedictine is reaching out. The Latin mass is not simply the content of the mass. It's--obviously--also its social milieu and proponents.<BR/><BR/>Now, as a symptom of a certain stance towards time: Korb's piece is fascinating.Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-66600840446844419992007-07-18T06:31:00.000-04:002007-07-18T06:31:00.000-04:00Karl, you may be interested in this. I can't vouc...Karl, you may be interested in <A HREF="http://www.jewcy.com/feature/2007-07-11/tridentine" REL="nofollow">this</A>. I can't vouch of accuracy, but it does emplace the return to the Latin mass within exactly the kinds ofd esires you were outlining.Jeffrey Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346504393740520542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-69500751478797271502007-07-09T08:46:00.000-04:002007-07-09T08:46:00.000-04:00Thanks for that post, Hoccleve. It's another wise ...Thanks for that post, Hoccleve. It's another wise reminder that when we hear about 'ultra traditionalists,' we should remember both that we can be trapdoored (in this case, by the Use of Sarum) and that the supposedly single foundation of tradition has multiple, asynchronous sites.<BR/><BR/>Waxy Buildup Dept: We might also discuss the standard call to cleanse the church of the excesses it has suffered through degeneration (which here seems to function as another word for 'time'). This has been the approach, hasn't it, of schismatics, heretics, and, yes, reformers, whether we're talking about the Protestants, Waldensians and Lollards, or the Mendicants. There must be a good article someplace on the discursive fantasies of the Apostolic Church.<BR/><BR/>(Adam: I can guess at the point, and in fact I think I'd be able to see it, had you not told me the point had not yet arrived)Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-81110271718401948782007-07-08T18:34:00.000-04:002007-07-08T18:34:00.000-04:00To Carolus Ferrus be this lettir delyveryd in hast...To Carolus Ferrus be this lettir delyveryd in haste.<BR/><BR/>Yowr ylernyd glossa on the Popes noua bulla han yeuyn me much plesaunce & ynspiryd me to writyn a glossa of myn owyn to that effecte. Ich maye nought reherce hyt at thys poynte but thou mayest rede hyt on my owyn rolle of blogge yclepyd Westymnstre blues on the folwenynge webbemundi locacyoun: http://hoccleve.blogspot.com).<BR/><BR/>Wretyn at Westmynstre on the eighte daye of Iuli. By yowre humble servaunt Thomas Hoccleve.Thomas Hocclevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12353818577644662654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-21880264355557857302007-07-08T15:39:00.000-04:002007-07-08T15:39:00.000-04:00My wife and I recently went to see Spamelot.Bear w...My wife and I recently went to see <I>Spamelot</I>.<BR/><BR/>Bear with me here. The relevance if this info to your post is on its way ...<BR/><BR/>Much of the stage musical simply lifts sketches and dialogue from that genuinely significant piece of modern medievalia, <I>Monty Python and the Holy Grail</I>. But there are some new songs, and a new storyline. This latter includes a new ending: Arthur can only complete his quest if he puts on a stage musical on Broadway. There's a strange and not very funny song about how it's not possible to put on a stage show unless you have 'Jews': ("To hit the top on Broadway and not lose,/ I tell you, Arthur king,/ There is one essential thing/ There simply must be, simply must be Jews.") So Arthur quests to find "Jews", without success. At the last minute his sidekick Patsy declares that he's Jewish, thus setting up the final number. 'But why didn't you tell me before?' Arthur asks. 'Well it's not the kind of thing to tend to tell a heavily armed Christian,' Patsy replies.<BR/><BR/>It got a laugh in the theatre, but it gave me pause. Not just because it all seemed a trifle off colour, but because it seems to depend upon a cultural climate in which murderous anti-semitism is assumed to be a Christian thing. A medieval cultural climate, in other words. Whereas I wondered if the words stand as some kind of coded expression of a different expression, 'Well it's not the kind of thing to tend to tell a heavily armed Muslim...'<BR/><BR/>Still waiting for the relevance of this to your post? Aha! You'll have to wait a little longer ...Rachel Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09514816247989239714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-169727887395532422007-07-08T14:42:00.000-04:002007-07-08T14:42:00.000-04:00Perhaps we could also have discussion that expands...Perhaps we could also have discussion that expands the conversation to something more than the content of the mass itself. In other words, situate the so-called traditional mass in its social milieu, one that, after all, includes the <A HREF="http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=397" REL="nofollow">SSPX</A> (also see <A HREF="http://www.cathnews.com/news/610/123.php" REL="nofollow">here</A>). At least with what I know now, my worry is that while the Latin mass that Benedict allows is not antisemitic, many leaders in the movement to use a Latin mass are themselves antisemites (and I should simply mark that I've seen some ugly blog discussions on the Latin mass...now, if the SSPX and Mel Gibson are not among the leaders in this movement, I'm happy to be corrected; I couldn't find any connection between William Donahue's Catholic League and the Latin Mass). To be sure, by not allowing the return to the line about "perfidis" Jews, Benedict has no doubt refused to placate some of the traditionalists entirely. Nonetheless, I <I>do</I> worry. I worry about all nostalgia.Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-49899563127380541902007-07-08T13:55:00.000-04:002007-07-08T13:55:00.000-04:00I thank you, Pete, for reading my penultimate sent...I thank you, Pete, for reading my penultimate sentence in a spirit of charity.<BR/><BR/>No time just now to pin down the significance of all this, but <A HREF="http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2007/07/apostolic-letter-in-form-of-motu.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> is what purports to be Benedict's decree, moto proprio, in English translation. You may also want to consult <A HREF="http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-07-05T184625Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_India-283347-1.xml&archived=False" REL="nofollow">this</A> Reuters article, this <A HREF="http://www.totallyjewish.com/news/world/c-6632/fears-allayed-over-latin-mass/" REL="nofollow">comment</A> from totallyjewish.com, <A HREF="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1183053079059&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull" REL="nofollow">this</A> from the Jerusalem Post (whose political leanings I don't know), and <A HREF="http://faithfulrebel.blogspot.com/2007/04/jewish-christian-ecumenical-group.html" REL="nofollow">this</A> blog.<BR/><BR/>Research indicates that the "Oremus et pro perfidis Judaeis" will not be included in the return to a Latin Mass, but that prayers calling for the conversion of Jews will be.Karl Steelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03353370018006849747noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21165575.post-13421678610611982142007-07-08T13:20:00.000-04:002007-07-08T13:20:00.000-04:00The Missal of John XXIII of 1962 is the prescribed...The Missal of John XXIII of 1962 is the prescribed form, which does not include the "pray for the perfidious Jews" statement.<BR/><BR/>Nice attempt at rabblerousing though.Peter Danehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04212453912913769850noreply@blogger.com